Tracey Ullman
Thoughts on her recent appearance on Louis Theroux Podcast
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I’ve held Tracey Ullman as a significant comedy influence and American Gods style “Modern Deity” for many years now. In terms of her being a trail blazing woman in comedy, here in the UK and in the States, you’d be hard pressed to find a more impressive example of someone whose talent seemingly knows no bounds. She is, without any argument, a force of nature. I’m prefacing this with praise for her because I don’t want you to think I’m not a fan. In fact, the very reason I feel any desire to talk about this is precisely because I am, and I’m just trying to reconcile some immense frustrations I’m having after listening to a recent interview with her on the Louis Theroux Podcast.
I’ve never met Ullman, but I did once see her in a small London theatre bar. She wasn’t performing in the show, and was instead just there as an audience member - but in a lot of ways she was the main act as I remember her being surrounded by comedy fans, mostly women my age, asking for autographs and posing for photos. I felt star-struck to be in her presence, and that is saying something because I rarely feel star-struck. I’m not a ‘fan’ of many people, honestly.
So I was pretty excited to see that Ullman was the most recent guest on Louis Theroux’s podcast, the unimaginatively named (but good for SEO branding) The Louis Theroux Podcast. It’s rare to hear longer form conversations with Ullman, and maybe after this one it’s slightly clearer as to why. Like most people in the UK, I like Louis Theroux. He’s difficult not to like. I recently had a conversation with a Portuguese friend who didn’t quite understand the cultural cache and ‘national treasure’ status that Louis Theroux has in the UK, and it was an interesting challenge trying to give a concise, simplified overview of his career as a light hearted, wacky documentarian, turned living meme, turned serious documentarian for the BBC, turned living meme again. He straddles many different worlds. But his podcast is Theroux in a much more relaxed, conversational - almost puff piecey mode (not that there’s anything at all wrong with that. It’s ok to have light conversations on your podcast). At the same time though, sometimes his documentarian instincts come through and he can’t help himself but to pry a little bit deeper. I respect that he doesn’t shy away from discomfort.
In his chat with Tracey Ullman, Theroux does press her slightly on objectionable characters she’s played in the past - specifically blackface roles. For reasons I’ll get into later, I wasn’t actually aware of the extent that Ullman has embraced blackface (plus other racial stereotyping) in her career. A lot of it is reminiscent of Matt Lucas and David Walliams’ horrendous “Come Fly With Me” series, where it’s difficult to give the benefit of the doubt that “best intentions” were always intended. To be frank, it doesn’t age well at all - and although it’s come to be expected that due to changing sensibilities a public figure is always going to have regrettable works in their back catalog, from her response - it doesn’t feel very much like Ullman particularly regrets these choices. Tracey Ullman is the queen of diversion tactics here and uses her quick talking to force the direction of conversation away at breakneck speeds. She goes completely on the defensive and rather than attempting to actually discuss this stuff, which would at the very least be interesting, she instead points to Theroux’s inability to call out Jimmy Saville as a child molester during his documentary with him. It’s honestly difficult to listen to at times because she’s so clearly grasping at straws.
Louis asks her who she likes in comedy right now, and her response is “Dave Chappelle”. She says that he’s “telling it how it is”. Naturally, the conversation then delves into Dave Chappelle’s well documented history of explicit transphobia - which Ullman again misrepresents. She seems to be of the opinion that he’s “working through” the issue, which is an argument I’m so sick of hearing. Chappelle literally knows nothing about the trans experience, and the perspective he pedals is deeply rooted in prejudice. It’s sad, and immensely frustrating to hear someone like Ullman taken in by such rubbish. It’s hard to take her view as unbiased, also - because she makes it clear that she knows him personally. The worst part for me though, is when she brings up the absolutely tired narrative that Chappelle had a “trans friend” who he had support him on tour and then who died, tragically - this whole thing was clearly a cynical move by Chappelle to appear balanced after 4 unique Netflix stand up specials where he propagates some of the most disgusting, harmful, divisory untruths about the trans community imaginable. And while relaying this frankly stupid anecdote, Tracey Ullman proceeds to misgender this dead trans woman who she clearly doesn’t even know the name of. Personally, I think you can tell a lot about a person these days by how literate they are on anti-trans propaganda - and on this one, Tracey Ullman gets a big, fat ‘F’. Take it from a trans woman in comedy - comparatively to other underrepresented groups - we are practically nowhere.
An important point that Louis Theroux brings up to Ullman is that very little of her older work (the work that was so pivotal to her reputation and standing) is not currently available to see anywhere. Ullman reveals that she owns the rights to all of it, and consciously chooses not to put it out. The reason she gives for this, is that she is “forward thinking” and only has desires to make new things. This all feels a bit too convenient, considering that some of that older work might not paint her in the best light. It’s unfortunate, because not only would it be a legitimately refreshing approach to see someone like Ullman honestly take on the backwards comedy sensibilities of their past, but it’d be nice to also get to see how pivotal her work was to the modern comedy landscape. God knows funny women are grossly under-celebrated in the UK. But I guess she has enough of that Simpsons money, and it’s not worth the hassle to her?
I guess above anything, I just wonder what the thought process was behind going on the Louis Theroux podcast for someone like Ullman. It feels like she’s much more comfortable when she’s in her own, very controlled spotlight.
I used to think I wanted more Tracey Ullman in my life, but now I’m not so sure - especially if it’s one who takes Dave Chappelle of all people at their word.
Come and see my new show “Doll” at the Bill Murray / Angel Comedy Club on March 11! Tickets HERE